julie's going to kick your ass...you better put SPOILER in bold letters.

i think it's pretty vague...unless no one thinks there is going to be any evil act whatsoever in the book.

Dammit. It's a shame I like Tom. Otherwise, I'd respond voluminously. But I agree.

Oh shit. I just read the very sad thing. I just wanted to finish one chapter during lunch. Now it's time for no-holds-barred employee insubordination!

And you're right, Catherine, I'd put money on it.

kriston, i know - i had a DCist meeting right after i finished reading about the Very Sad Thing. i debated TOTALLY SKIPPING it, but then thought that would not be wise. but i almost just sat in the metro station and finished the book instead. the last 1/4 is nearly impossible to put down.

(no kidding. i'm whispering right now, because i don't want to get dooced.)

might be a good time to remind everyone that you can use <SPOILER>...</SPOILER> tags here in comments, and it'll show up like this:

spoilers go here!

Whoa, is that for real? You guys think of everything!

So how on earth are they going to keep the school open for another year? And is Harry even going to bother showing up, if he's going to embark on this horcrux-finding missionquest? And not to belittle his abilities, but Snape did a good job of whipping his ass all up and down Hogwarts there at the end, so where's Harry getting this surge of confidence?

And Tommy is ugly.

so what does everybody think is d's "ironclad" reason for trusting s? and i don't know why i'm just typing d or s instead of just saying the full names, but whatever. s is going to be good, i'm sure of it. so what's with the whole, you know, Sad Thing? there must be a reason behind it...

i wrote this in an email to kanishka:

anyway, either a) dumbledore was evil and this is all part of a major plan to help voldemort
b) dumbledore IS voldemort
c) dumbledore somehow had a horcrux inside of him or something and needed to have it destroyed
d) snape is good and only killed dumbledore because it will somehow help defeat voldemort (there was the "pleading" from dumbledore before snape killed him, when i read it i honestly thought it was like, please kill me, please do it
e) all that potion dumbledore drank on the little island was like a life preserving thing left by RAB so he's not really dead (what do you think dumbledore was moaning about anyway when he was drinking it? sounds like he had some pretty serious secrets)
f) i have no effin clue!

holy fuck, do we really have to wait until summer of 2008 for the 7th book? dude. holy fuck.

wikipedia has some good talk about the 7th book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter:_Book_Seven
and now it is really time for me to stop leaving eleventeen comments on my own post.

i am refusing to comment until i go home and re-read the ending, which I read at a barely-coherent 1:30 AM-ish, just on principle of finishing the damn thing in one night.

Some stuff I sent Catherine in an e-mail:

I figured that Dumbledore had to die. Just because, as HP says in the end, he always has someone else sticking up for him. Looking back it makes earlier deus ex machina moments seem more justifiable: I was annoyed when HP had the hat, sword, and phoenix at the end in Chamber, but seen as an early learning battle as a part of a war in which HP will eventually have to fight alone (well, just with Ron and Hermione), I like it more. I think I like the whole series more now that Dumbledore's dead—it seems like he's been orchestrating the whole fight.

And I think he was definitely pleading for Snape to kill him so that Draco wouldn't have to. What do you think? I really didn't think Snape would do it like he did—I thought HP would break free and in the confusion (or something) somehow Dumbledore would get blasted and HP would then (unfairly) blame Snape, but they made it cold. But it seems to me that Snape had no choice, and there's probably a Luke/Emperor/Darth Vader scene waiting at the end of book 7 featuring HP/Voldemort/Snape. I hope there's something more subtle, some twist to make it more original, but it's sort of the mythic template.

I like Ginny a lot, and sort of wish she'd been more stubborn and demanded to join HP, R, & H. After all, R & H are in serious danger, too.

So are they not going to feature Hogwarts at all in book 7? That blows—I totally want to know how Hermione does on her N.E.W.T.S.

Also:

I hear Tommy can't read.

And to connect the novel with the troubles plaguing the Bush administration:

Did anyone else get a distinctly war-on-terror vibe from the security precautions?

Oh man, need to master that spoiler tag. Someone help!

fixed it! for the record, i guess you have to wrap each paragraph in a spoiler tag.

It's interesting - one of the main plotlines in the first book is whether or not Snape is a villain, and after everything that's happened throughout six books, we still don't know for certain. That's either really good writing or very bad.

Did anyone else get a distinctly war-on-terror vibe from the security precautions?

The unhelpful safety pamphlet certainly seemed familiar. I think Rowling did a good job of capturing the dread of the days after September 11.

Kriston, you're totally right. Voldemort was never a real threat as long as Dumbledore was around... The end of the fifth book is a great example. Everyone's fighting for their life against howevermany death eaters, and then dumbledore shows up and has them all wrangled in ten seconds. Hardly a worthwhile battle if the good guys can win so easily. And while Dumbledore seems to know everything that's going on everywhere all the time, but he made some comment in the book to the tune of "like all men i do make mistakes, but when i do they tend ot have more disasterous consequences", which makes me think he might have been duped in the end. Voldemort is pretty flipping evil, after all. But then, why would he immobilize harry if he didn't feel like he had the situation fully under control.

Maybe Snape is, and always was, in love with Narcissa Malfoy. And it was this love, supposedly the most powerful magic in all the land, that made Snape make the unbreakable vow and ultimately betray Dumbledore in the tower, without Dumbledore ever suspecting it..

I'm hurting for people out west to talk to about this. Think we could rig up some sort of drunken video conference?

purple is the new orange! not really a spoiler, but you never know what people don't like to know...

Also: They had to make room for Harry to be the commander of the last mission. It wouldn't exactly do for D to tell HP to do x, y, and z, then have HP do so, then have D congratulate him. you see him already start to take command of the situation at the end.

So then let's hear some speculation... Do you think the seventh book will chronicle Harry's slow search for the remaining horcruxes? I mean, Harry finds #1 / month of school / Harry finds #2 / month of school / etc. Or will there be a trove of them waiting to be found? Or will this RAB character already have all of them? Hmm...

good question. i'm not sure if there will be any hogwarts in the equation or not. i feel fairly certain that harry will not attend hogwarts and he'll go on his quest (with ron and hermione, possibly), but i'm sure there'll be some hogwarts action. what else would they do with mcgonagall, neville, luna, slughorn, ginny, etc?

i have read a few spoilers about RAB and what might have been done with the real locket, etc, but they're double spoilery so i won't say them here.

hmm, i hadn't thought about snape being in love w/ narcissa...interesting. have there been any hints pointing towards that?

drunk harry potter book club meetings. exxxccelllleennnntttt.

Snape has to be in love with somebody; it seems clear enough now that all the central characters in HP *except* Voldemort are motivated very strongly by love.

do you mean romantic love necessarily?

No, that would get gross. A number of kinds of loves, but dedicated to another specific character.

maybe dumbledore is snape's papa :). or james potter was his half-brother or smth. i can't remember who snape's father was.

or maybe snape was hopelessly in love with lily potter, that's why he keeps saving harry.

Who does Snape

Agree or disagree: The proprietor of the Hog's Head is Dumbledore's brother.

Agree or disagree: in the next book we'll learn more of Dumbledore's past and the source of his power, possibly through conversations with a ghost or portrait or something. All Obi-Wan style.

Spent all my time at the gym thinking about this. I think I've got something...

So Rowling has revealed that HP 7 will contain revelations about Lily Potter's past, right? Also, Rowling has this crazy "love is the greatest mojo of all" agenda. We know Voldemort's weakness is that he feels no love, and some of us suspect that Snape isn't bad, but a triple agent type who killed Dumbledore because he had to. What we don't know: why Snape turned on Voldemort, and why Dumbledore trusts him.

So here's where the theorizing comes in. We know Snape hated James Potter, and that he hasn't said much negative about Lily. We know that Lily was good at potions, as was Snape. What we find out in Book 7 is that not only was Snape in love with Lily (this love having been strengthened or created when Lily defended Snape and yelled at James back in the day), but that Snape and Lily actually dated. Of course, this "dating" was via a love potion (weren't you wondering why there was so much about love potions in Book 6?) and James found out and busted Snape.

Oh, and the Snape turn? Voldemort promised Snape he wouldn't hurt Lily. Of course, Voldemort was lying, but for some stupid reason Snape believed him. When Voldy killed Lily, Snape was crushed and returned to Hogwarts. Dumbledore didn't trust him, so he made Snape make an unbreakable vow.

And there you have it. Ms Rowling, please email me so I can tell you where to send the check (err, cheque).

jeff, the first one i'm pretty sure is true - i think rowling confirmed it in an i/v or something. and i definitely agree about the second one.

kanishka, that sounds like a definite possibility. i wouldn't be at all surprised if snape had been in love with lily, or else i'm pretty sure he would have punched harry in the face a million times by now.

I'm also pretty sure there's no way Harry could be a horcrux. I mean, Voldemort tried to kill him, right? Why would Voldemort try to kill his own horcrux? Plus, after the battle, Voldemort was hurt big time -- no way he could have planted a horcrux in that state. Unless Harry is an accidental horcrux, and that I just don't see.

or maybe lily and snape were related in some way? could it have been a coincidence that they were both so good at potions?

additionally, i wouldn't be surprised if snape sacrifices himself in some way in book 7. he is totally the spike of rowling's buffyverse. it's all about redemption.

oh also jeff, in relation to the first thing you said in your last comment, since it's true, in what ways will that be important?

yeah, i don't know about harry being a horcrux...but i bet it's not nagini. that'd be too easy, dumbledore having told him straight off and all.

One aspect of the theory that Snape is good that I think goes overlooked is that it depends on Snape being a better Occlumens than Voldemort is a Legilimens. In book 4, when Voldemort and the Death Eaters meet HP, Voldemort makes clear that his most trusted Death Eater is at Hogwarts. Whatever the solution to Snape's loyalties is, I don't get the impression that it's going to involve unfathomable power on Snape's part.

It might be the case that Voldemort is just that sloppy; already this R.A.B. character seems to have outwitted him. Or R.A.B. is simply so powerful that he was able to slip by defenses that Dumbledore couldn't penetrate without assistance. It's a good thing that, you know, the next installment will be here soon so we can put these questions to rest.

I thought Voldemort was referring to Barty Crouch when he said that... hm. In any case, Voldemort certainly suffers from a good bit of hubris. It could just be that he doesn't think to question Snape.

The evidence still seems to lean toward Snape protecting Harry. The "He didn't curse him as he was running" argument is my particular favorite for this case.

i think it's safe to assume that snape has some good reason for keeping harry alive, whether it be love for lily, an unbreakable vow, or anything else.

can we address something that's been BUGGING me since book 4 came out - and this isn't a spoiler - why did dumbledore have a "glimmer of triumph" in his eyes after hearing about voldemort coming back? why??

From HP Lexicon:

The full context in which Harry sees the "gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes" is that Voldemort now has Harry's blood in him. Voldemort has a habit of forgetting details which can be his downfall. On pages 652-653 of Goblet of Fire Voldemort says: "His mother left upon him traces of her sacrifice... This is old magic, I should have remembered it." In Chamber of secrets Tom Riddle forgets that phoenix tears can heal. I think that Dumbledore's gleam of triumph is that he has realized that Voldemort has once more done something which is going to bring about his downfall. Just what, I am not sure. Perhaps now he has enough human in him to die. Perhaps having Harry's blood in him will cause the Avada Kedavra curse to rebound on to Voldemort if it actual hits Harry. Remember that professor Binns has said that Dumbledore could do the dark arts. I suspect that Dumbledore is better versed in the dark arts than Voldemort is. He simply chooses not to use them. Dumbledore says that it is our choices that are important.

Hubris!

I didn't realize that Dumbledore's brother thing had been confirmed. I guess I won't need the spoiler tags then.

But I don't know how it'll be important, but I bet it will be. Dumbledore probably confided in him somethings that will be very valuable to harry in the end.

so i am rereading the book, and pp 405-6, there's an interesting passage about dumbledore and snape arguing in the forest; hagrid overhears them. dumbledore told snape "he agreed to do it and that was all there was to it." and snape was mumbling about dumbledore taking too much for granted. interesting...goddammit. now i'm going to have to reread the whole series and look for stuff like this.

of course what i meant to add was this might refer to dumbledore and snape having made an unbreakable vow. either to protect harry or to kill dumbledore when necessary.

There's some speculation bouncing around that R.A.B. is Regulus Black, Sirius's brother, who was a Death eater and was killed when he tried to leave them. I'm betting on some heavy geneology work on Harry's part in Book 7 to trace how Regulus might have gotten a horcrux, and where he hid it.

weird...didn't put my name on that last comment

On Regulas Black: As I alluded to over at Kriston's site, on page 116 of Order of the Phoenix, there's a passage describing the objects removed from a cabinet of Dark-ish magical stuff and Black family heirlooms at Sirius's family home while Mrs. Weasley and the others are cleaning it out. One of the objects listed is "a heavy locket none of them could open". There's already a lot of speculation regarding it if you Google around. Regulus Black was the first thing that came into my mind for "R.A.B.", and I know I'm not alone (I'm fairly certain his full name is given once or twice within the book as a sort of anticipatory move.) Whether it's a false lead or not is another question.

Regarding book 7: obviously there's the opportunity to break the mold of all of the previous volumes, and I wouln't be surprised if we get some of that. And it could be a good thing, offering new settings and opportunities for the conclusion. However, given that the repitition of the school year and the academic setting have been so important to the books, I can't see them just being discarded. I would be intrigued by a sort of inversion of the previous years: Hogwarts abandoned as a school, but still the center of the action, with the place going wild (or wilder) than before, perhaps even taken over. We shall find out.

Rereading Phoenix, with which I was rather dissatisfied at the time, I can still see its flaws, but have to admit it has more highs than Prince does. Fred and George are at their best in it, the opening with Petunia Dursley is rather affecting, Umbridge's torture of Harry, a number of fun new characters - there's a lot more to enjoy than is often remembered. The sixth book flattens these out somewhat, though the continued growth of Ginny Weasley (already evident in book 5) is very welcome.

Good lord, no wonder I can't seem to post anything at my own site.

Hey T&C, you should make this thread sticky.

Frankly, I'm not sure how the last chapter could follow Hogwarts's slow pace. If book 7 is Harry Potter: War, Motherfuckers! it's going to be a little trite to put any of the principal characters in Herbology. Rowling would have to spend a lot of capital, too, to make it believable that the already skittish parents are willing to send their kids to school now that Dumbledore is dead. She seems to have set it up in book 6, however, to have it both ways, with lots of characters discussing *whether* Hogwarts will be open but many concluding that it's simply safer there than elsewhere.

My thought is similar to JL's—Hogwarts will remain open and some of the action will take place there, but it will serve more as a military bunker than a school. It doesn't seem like there's enough room in a single book to establish Harry's quest and Voldemort's final threat, witness the vanquish of Voldemort (or whatever), and follow the kids through their N.E.W.T.S. That last item doesn't fit with the rest; already I'm disappointed, since I think the Hogwarts academic year is made of the stuff that made _Jonathan Strange_ so good.

JL, that's a very interesting catch. That makes the Regulus Black solution seem much more likely.

Tom, are you done with the book yet? Susan's working her way through.

no, tom hasn't even started...:( and it's my fault. i'm rereading, so i'm holding him up.

the RAB thing was what julian said in the link above, and it does sound very likely.

one question about RAB and the locket catch that JL made - maybe i'm confusing myself - but if RAB already had the locket, he must taken it a looong time ago, right? to have left a note in the basin on the island, and then put it in a dusty box of belongings at the black house? anyway, i'm sure the locket is far gone now - mundungus fletcher was stealing stuff from sirius' house, and he's probably sold it off by now, or is in fact a much more sinister character than we thought.

how do we make it sticky? just keep it at the top somehow?

here's where i start making absolutely retarded observations: severus snape is an anagram of perseus evans. lily potter's maiden name is evans. AND there's some ancient greek shit about quests and killing and medusa and grandfather-killing-prophecies related to perseus. EH???

okay, i'm going with it: snape and lily are somehow related. based on my retarded anagram thing, and the fact that slughorn keeps making such a big deal about lily's potion-making "genes" coming out in harry. snape was a half-blood, and a master of the potions.

Snape's HP's dad? Search your feelings for you know it to be true?

Regulus, we are told, became a Death Eater and then got cold feet at what he was asked to do. He tried to leave, and was at some point thereafter hunted down and killed by Voldemort. I would imagine he found out about the Horcrux while in service and then retrieved it (and others elsewhere? Probably not, but perhaps) and brought it back to 12 Grimmauld Place, but was killed before he could destroy it.

And there it sat. It wouldn't have attracted attention in a house full of serpent-ornamented oddities, nor was Voldemort looking for it. At the time of Phoenix, the house has been empty for years, with Regulus and his mother dead and Sirius in prison. Only Kreacher was there - and he, were also told, would take objects the Order cleaned out and stow them away himself. So while it may have been stolen, it still could also be in the house - or elsewhere with Kreacher . . .

But that's just speculation.

just reading some random faq, it says that "Dumbledore is not a relative of Harry's."

Well there goes the theory I heard about Dumbledore being Ron and Hermione's son (or something like that) from the future. That's one of the more ridiculous ideas I've seen floating around.

Now I'm rethinking the structure for book 7, and I'm worried that it's going to be like a Final Fantasy game, with HP, R, & H running around the world collecting Horcruxes in order to vanquish the evil Lord Voldemort. That's almost like a bad fantasy novel!

so, came across this in my rereading, page 549...harry's just found out that snape was the one who overheard the prophecy and told voldemort about it (though remember snape didn't know who the prophecy referred to) and harry is raging at dumbledore (this is right before they go to find the horcrux) and dumbledore says, "you h ave no idea of the remorse prof. snape felt when he realized how LV had interpreted the prophecy, harry. i believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason he returned--" and harry cuts him off by asking how he can be sure he trusts snape. dumbledore struggles silenty for a minute and appears to be trying to make his mind up about something, but only tells harry he is sure, he trusts him completely. so seems like dumbledore definitely knows something about a connection between snape and harry and/or his parents that he's not sure harry should yet know.

well, i'm gone. i signed up for the "harry potter for grown ups" mailing list. i suggest only reading messages on the web as they send about 500 emails a day. speculation from one message that i thought was interesting...
I apologise: I can't find the exact quote again, but I remember when reading it that Dumbledore stressed to Harry at one point that, as large of brain as he is, he can make equally large mistakes. He points to the difference between the actual memories and the
conjectures he's making about them.

IMO this is Rowling telling us that at least one of his critical conjectures is wrong. It might be useful to speculate on which one.

Can I kick off and suggest that Voldemort didn't go to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry, but to make him a Horcrux? (He's very arrogant: if the baby has the power to vanquish him, he might decide to harness rather than destroy him. Remember he hasn't heard that neither can live while the other survives.)

That's why Lily was, in his opinion, being "a silly girl" to give her life to protect him. James's was the necessary death: Harry was
only ever to be a Horcrux spell. It has been pointed out that this spell did not emerge from Voldemort's wand in GOF - maybe he used James's (or Lily's) wand. Maybe to make a Horcrux you have to use the wand of the person you killed?

Whether you agree with that or not, the key point I'd like to highlight for debate is, at least one of Dumbledore's assumptions is wrong: which one?